Comments on: Is Bruce Eckel Right? Maybe not. http://www.psynixis.com/blog/2007/02/05/is-bruce-eckel-right-maybe-not/ Simon Brocklehurst's Technology Blog Sun, 12 Oct 2008 15:30:13 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: Ubiquitous http://www.psynixis.com/blog/2007/02/05/is-bruce-eckel-right-maybe-not/#comment-326438 Ubiquitous Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:39:35 +0000 http://www.psynixis.com/blog/2007/02/05/is-bruce-eckel-right-maybe-not/#comment-326438 I can't get Java web start or Flash to run on my PDA without jumping through hoops. Then I have to port my application to Java ME or Flash Lite. So what's the point of all this arguing. I can’t get Java web start or Flash to run on my PDA without jumping through hoops. Then I have to port my application to Java ME or Flash Lite. So what’s the point of all this arguing.

]]> By: Kishore http://www.psynixis.com/blog/2007/02/05/is-bruce-eckel-right-maybe-not/#comment-21129 Kishore Thu, 22 Feb 2007 09:13:09 +0000 http://www.psynixis.com/blog/2007/02/05/is-bruce-eckel-right-maybe-not/#comment-21129 We are all completely biased, we don't like to see any other technology than JAVA. We need to quickly develop cross browser consistent GUI, with little code. Which are the best options, [-] HTML + JavaScript(AJAX) = Cross browser issues, Inconsistent Look, unexpected JavaScript bugs. [-] Java Applet and Swing = How many got JRE(at least JRE 1.4) on client PC's. Installing is headache for non-programmers.Developing Swing based applications needs lot of knowledge of inner working of Swing Architecture, Patters, too many Listeners, Inner-Classes.Has to write too much of code for even small tasks. [-] Flash: download is small, installation is smooth. Consistent looks across browsers, OS. Easy to develop GUI's. ActionScript with Version 3.0 is not a joke, checkout its features.Their JIT compiler is fast enough to do any kind of client processing. Old Flash is different, try the latest, Flex 2.0.Developing custom components is easy. Getting 3rd party components on Flex is just a matter of time. Adobe(or Macromedia) they have done a good Job with the latest version of Flash. They no more want to stick their names for simple, cool looking animation products. We are all completely biased, we don’t like to see any other technology than JAVA.

We need to quickly develop cross browser consistent GUI, with little code.
Which are the best options,

[-] HTML + JavaScript(AJAX) = Cross browser issues, Inconsistent Look, unexpected JavaScript bugs.

[-] Java Applet and Swing = How many got JRE(at least JRE 1.4) on client PC’s. Installing is headache for non-programmers.Developing Swing based applications needs lot of knowledge of inner working of Swing Architecture, Patters, too many Listeners, Inner-Classes.Has to write too much of code for even small tasks.

[-] Flash: download is small, installation is smooth.
Consistent looks across browsers, OS.
Easy to develop GUI’s.
ActionScript with Version 3.0 is not a joke, checkout its features.Their JIT compiler is fast enough to do any kind of client processing.

Old Flash is different, try the latest, Flex 2.0.Developing custom components is easy.
Getting 3rd party components on Flex is just a matter of time.

Adobe(or Macromedia) they have done a good Job with the latest version of Flash. They no more want to stick their names for simple, cool looking animation products.

]]> By: simon http://www.psynixis.com/blog/2007/02/05/is-bruce-eckel-right-maybe-not/#comment-21007 simon Wed, 21 Feb 2007 07:39:01 +0000 http://www.psynixis.com/blog/2007/02/05/is-bruce-eckel-right-maybe-not/#comment-21007 @19. LOL! Not a Swing fan then?! You know Swing actually *is* a great GUI toolkit. But, I'm not gonna try to persuade you. I agree with you about GTK+ vs Qt though... @19. LOL! Not a Swing fan then?! You know Swing actually *is* a great GUI toolkit. But, I’m not gonna try to persuade you.

I agree with you about GTK+ vs Qt though…

]]> By: Jesse Kuhnert http://www.psynixis.com/blog/2007/02/05/is-bruce-eckel-right-maybe-not/#comment-21000 Jesse Kuhnert Wed, 21 Feb 2007 05:45:57 +0000 http://www.psynixis.com/blog/2007/02/05/is-bruce-eckel-right-maybe-not/#comment-21000 Haha ...Someone equivocated swing as being superior than "anything" at all. That is funny. Really. Ha... And have you all done anything in Gtk btw? It's not exactly fun either. Qt is my favorite of the bunch, but I think we can do a hell of a lot better with desktop apps. Down with the desktop, it must die. ;) Haha …Someone equivocated swing as being superior than “anything” at all. That is funny. Really. Ha…

And have you all done anything in Gtk btw? It’s not exactly fun either. Qt is my favorite of the bunch, but I think we can do a hell of a lot better with desktop apps. Down with the desktop, it must die. ;)

]]> By: William Tracy http://www.psynixis.com/blog/2007/02/05/is-bruce-eckel-right-maybe-not/#comment-20989 William Tracy Wed, 21 Feb 2007 04:15:12 +0000 http://www.psynixis.com/blog/2007/02/05/is-bruce-eckel-right-maybe-not/#comment-20989 > Flash applications: > easier to use BS. Flash apps are laggy, and almost always unintuitive. I've always been an apologist for cross-platform LAFs, but I swear that 90% of Flash developers go out of their way to demonstrate how NOT to create cross-platform LAFs. > easier to deploy Agreed. > better integrated with it’s environment Show me a Flash app that can be deployed across multiple operating systems with native-looking and acting buttons, scrollbars, and drop menus. Just show me a single Flash app that can handle the damn mouse wheel correctly. Show me a Flash app that can use the native file chooser or color picker. If that's not what you mean by "better integrated", I would love to know what you do mean. > more capable at producing > complex applications What are you smoking? Show me one Flash app with over fifty widgets that doesn't suck. If that's not what you mean by "complex applications", I would like to know what on earth you *do* mean. > easier to update Agreed. > larger user base Ditto. William > Flash applications:
> easier to use

BS. Flash apps are laggy, and almost always unintuitive.

I’ve always been an apologist for cross-platform LAFs, but I swear that 90% of Flash developers go out of their way to demonstrate how NOT to create cross-platform LAFs.

> easier to deploy

Agreed.

> better integrated with it’s environment

Show me a Flash app that can be deployed across multiple operating systems with native-looking and acting buttons, scrollbars, and drop menus. Just show me a single Flash app that can handle the damn mouse wheel correctly.

Show me a Flash app that can use the native file chooser or color picker.

If that’s not what you mean by “better integrated”, I would love to know what you do mean.

> more capable at producing
> complex applications

What are you smoking? Show me one Flash app with over fifty widgets that doesn’t suck. If that’s not what you mean by “complex applications”, I would like to know what on earth you *do* mean.

> easier to update

Agreed.

> larger user base

Ditto.

William

]]> By: simon http://www.psynixis.com/blog/2007/02/05/is-bruce-eckel-right-maybe-not/#comment-20950 simon Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:37:18 +0000 http://www.psynixis.com/blog/2007/02/05/is-bruce-eckel-right-maybe-not/#comment-20950 @16 Do you know what a graphical user interface toolkit is? If you do, you will be well-aware that Flash didn't start out its life with the aim of building GUIs. When it started life, Flash was all about vector graphics animations. These are not the same thing... @16

Do you know what a graphical user interface toolkit is? If you do, you will be well-aware that Flash didn’t start out its life with the aim of building GUIs. When it started life, Flash was all about vector graphics animations. These are not the same thing…

]]> By: BlogReader http://www.psynixis.com/blog/2007/02/05/is-bruce-eckel-right-maybe-not/#comment-20942 BlogReader Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:33:26 +0000 http://www.psynixis.com/blog/2007/02/05/is-bruce-eckel-right-maybe-not/#comment-20942 <i>On the whole, pieces of Flash software have horrible, “hard to learn”, “hard to use” interfaces. GUI toolkits in Java Swing, .NET Forms, QT, GTK+ are all intrinsically far superior.</i> That has absolutely zero to do with the framework but rather the individual programmer. It is like blaming a hammer because you have stonemasons using them. <i>t hasn’t. Flash has always been about cross-platform multi-media and graphics, yes. But not user interfaces. </i> What do you mean by that? A flash game / program looks different on a Mac vs Windows? On the whole, pieces of Flash software have horrible, “hard to learn”, “hard to use” interfaces. GUI toolkits in Java Swing, .NET Forms, QT, GTK+ are all intrinsically far superior.

That has absolutely zero to do with the framework but rather the individual programmer. It is like blaming a hammer because you have stonemasons using them.

t hasn’t. Flash has always been about cross-platform multi-media and graphics, yes. But not user interfaces.

What do you mean by that? A flash game / program looks different on a Mac vs Windows?

]]> By: Keith W http://www.psynixis.com/blog/2007/02/05/is-bruce-eckel-right-maybe-not/#comment-20917 Keith W Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:43:43 +0000 http://www.psynixis.com/blog/2007/02/05/is-bruce-eckel-right-maybe-not/#comment-20917 Bruce Eckel is being paid by Adobe to promote its new "Flex" stuff. From now on, all of his technical opinions on the product are tainted and would best be ignored. Bruce Eckel is being paid by Adobe to promote its new “Flex” stuff.

From now on, all of his technical opinions on the product are tainted and would best be ignored.

]]> By: Jan http://www.psynixis.com/blog/2007/02/05/is-bruce-eckel-right-maybe-not/#comment-20884 Jan Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:27:28 +0000 http://www.psynixis.com/blog/2007/02/05/is-bruce-eckel-right-maybe-not/#comment-20884 The dark side of my dual boot Laptop runs Windows 2000 and just the other day I was at map24.nl. Like any body else I was anoyed that the Applet took so lang to start. I decided to change to IE and use MS JVM instead of the 1.5.0_10 plugin. Wowww that was fast. No noticeable load-time and instant play. An experience way different than the 1.5 SUN plugin. This goes to show that applets can be fast and if applets would be allowed to load stuff from different domains via the crossdomain.xml contruct that Flex uses Applets CAN be RIA. So I agree with the author that Webstart sucks and Applets too, but that it doesn't hev to be that way. I would love to build a presentation layer in swing xml layout tags and have all my business-logic on the server. Than I would'nt need XUL or MXML. The dark side of my dual boot Laptop runs Windows 2000 and just the other day I was at map24.nl. Like any body else I was anoyed that the Applet took so lang to start. I decided to change to IE and use MS JVM instead of the 1.5.0_10 plugin. Wowww that was fast. No noticeable load-time and instant play. An experience way different than the 1.5 SUN plugin. This goes to show that applets can be fast and if applets would be allowed to load stuff from different domains via the crossdomain.xml contruct that Flex uses Applets CAN be RIA.

So I agree with the author that Webstart sucks and Applets too, but that it doesn’t hev to be that way. I would love to build a presentation layer in swing xml layout tags and have all my business-logic on the server. Than I would’nt need XUL or MXML.

]]> By: Panagiotis http://www.psynixis.com/blog/2007/02/05/is-bruce-eckel-right-maybe-not/#comment-20882 Panagiotis Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:24:07 +0000 http://www.psynixis.com/blog/2007/02/05/is-bruce-eckel-right-maybe-not/#comment-20882 Flash applications: easier to use easier to deploy better integrated with it's environment more capable at producing complex applications easier to update larger user base it's as simple as that. Java was created to provide one solution to all the problems and needs of computer applications in terms of software. In an ever evolving and demanding environment such as the Internet, java has failed despite the nobility of it's cause. The reasons of that failure are many but at the same irrelevant to the degree that they don't help us discover a way to improve java for RIAS or just admit that it's better of another field of applications. Flash applications:
easier to use
easier to deploy
better integrated with it’s environment
more capable at producing complex applications
easier to update
larger user base

it’s as simple as that. Java was created to provide one solution to all the problems and needs of computer applications in terms of software. In an ever evolving and demanding environment such as the Internet, java has failed despite the nobility of it’s cause. The reasons of that failure are many but at the same irrelevant to the degree that they don’t help us discover a way to improve java for RIAS or just admit that it’s better of another field of applications.

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